Building a €20 Billion Banking-as-a-Service Platform – Insights from Swan’s CEO Nicolas Benady

00:00:00: Swan raised a total of one hundred million euros in funding to build e-money accounts.

00:00:05: We released our system, we had many many many crypto companies that wanted to work with us because they couldn't find the banking systems and allow them start their business.

00:00:17: For example, you have an accounting software and you get issued a card so that each receipt that your uploading can be matched with your payments.

00:00:26: It doesn't have to be.

00:00:27: the Accounting Software is the provider of cards in this case.

00:00:31: That's what Swan is offering.

00:00:33: I'm not very self-confident guy but for this venture or company i knew it was exactly what Europe needs.

00:00:40: And today we're diving deeper into building a fintech with Nicolas Benadis.

00:00:46: Yeah, for me the hardest time was probably two years ago when I realized that...

00:00:51: Nicolas is a serial entrepreneur did several companies do thirteen years of fintech before he started Swan.

00:00:58: You feel like you have such place and such a moat on market.

00:01:03: nobody can take your seat?

00:01:05: We're diving into finding his co-founders.

00:01:07: but then we start this one where i realize it's not only

00:01:18: equity split but also a little bit in fundraising growing internationally into different markets and then leadership and more topics.

00:01:42: It's a very hard industry, it takes a long time to build the product but Swan raised forty two million euros recently in their Series B extension which means they're currently growing at good speed on different markets And its an interesting time for us to listen to co-founder and CEO Nikola Bernadi.

00:02:01: You are listening to The Unicorn Bakery.

00:02:03: My name is Fabian Tausch.

00:02:04: Enjoy this episode

00:02:05: with

00:02:06: swan founder Nikola Nicolas, welcome to Unicorn Bakery.

00:02:12: Thank you for hosting me!

00:02:14: You are building fintech embedded finance infrastructure and when I think about that i think of very complex heavy investments in the beginning.

00:02:28: a long time product valid already, can I sell it?

00:02:34: Are we building towards the right direction and the need for a lot of conviction.

00:02:40: Of what I'm building until I have to feeling off.

00:02:44: Hey this works And We did the right way made the right choices.

00:02:50: What would you say?

00:02:50: was The first time since startings one in twenty nineteen that You felt hey with built towards the Right Direction were now seeing the traction That we Hoped for or wished for a plan four because you're planning but planning and then Reality can be different as most of the startup founders know.

00:03:10: When was that moment?

00:03:12: They won.

00:03:13: so I don't want to even before.

00:03:16: I can't explain Exactly why this is not the first start-up.

00:03:20: I've built And I haven't felt that fall for the other ones.

00:03:23: The other ones were also successful in their way, but I Was incredibly confident for Swan day one because I knew that there was a market.

00:03:35: Because i'm a fintech guy and I know that they were the market of what we are building, because already some competitors on the market have been successful with products which could be better.

00:03:53: so I felt extremely confident.

00:03:56: if we built... What did you build?

00:03:59: it would be a success.

00:04:00: And again, I'm not very self-confident guy usually most of the time and you can ask my team or people who work with me.

00:04:10: but for this venture... For this company i knew that what we were building was exactly what Europe needs And we needed this conviction, it was absolutely necessary because yes you're right.

00:04:27: Building a banking as-a-service platform takes a lot of time.

00:04:32: It took two years for us to build the tech To get a Nimone license which is kind of light banking license... ...to build a team and raise some money everything.

00:04:47: So during two years you can't show your product to your future clients.

00:04:53: But since I was not the first time entrepreneur, people knew that they were working on it at least in Paris and so we... It's quite easy for me and my team to talk with two potential partners.

00:05:08: So by conviction of having a day one, I was assured about the potential client that we met.

00:05:17: I never doubted that what we were doing was the good thing.

00:05:22: So to give a bit of perspective, you said two years until you got the license?

00:05:27: How long did it take until you made your first euro in revenue?

00:05:32: Ah!

00:05:33: But i can tell exactly so... We started on the second of January twenty-nineteen and remember when we met our first payment with a swan card.

00:05:45: It was Christmas, so exactly two years after.

00:05:48: But it's not because you have a live product that makes some revenue of course and we started to make some revenue... We sent our first invoice three months afterwards ...it was April twenty-one.

00:05:59: So in the middle of the tech bubble And this is also time where we raised our series A round which should've been more seed round but hey!

00:06:12: It was twenty one.

00:06:14: Everything that happened in twenty one stayed in twenty-one.

00:06:19: So talking about conviction and ideas, your expertise in fintech because you were coming from the industry how are you synthesizing?

00:06:29: And deciding on what to build next?

00:06:32: What was the process of there?

00:06:34: many ideas?

00:06:35: I'm very sure that The problem that you were identifying That became swan is not the only problem identifying in the industry.

00:06:43: So what made you go for this one?

00:06:47: What is a good idea to

00:06:51: you?".

00:06:54: That's a good question, because I know that many entrepreneurs have tons of ideas and it's not my case.

00:07:00: so Swan was like my fourth company and i think Maybe seven or eight ideas in my life.

00:07:13: Not that much, not like every year I have a new idea.

00:07:18: That's how it works for me at least And again all the time from its strong conviction It starts with... For me?

00:07:26: Again With understanding of problems Seeing something doesn't work.

00:07:34: The way is should work.

00:07:37: Then problem must be big enough to launch a company.

00:07:42: Sometimes it's small issue or the total addressable market is not big enough and then you want fix, maybe you want to launch but rather early at least in my mind.

00:07:55: okay let's do this.

00:07:57: Do you say big enough to become a venture case so that investors will give your money?

00:08:01: So are you thinking all ideas that way?

00:08:03: or when is it big enough, When You're not Thinking About Investors.

00:08:07: I'm Not Thinking about Investor's or Money at All.

00:08:10: At All...I don't build start-up for..not To Make Money Myself first..at All and not too to get interest from an investor.

00:08:20: It's not That i Don't Care Just That I like Big Things.

00:08:26: small is beautiful, it's not really something I like.

00:08:29: So yeah when you're building a startup emotionally super hard It will take big part of your energy and in life so well.

00:08:41: if she do that let's try to fix Big things and no small thing.

00:08:45: That's it.

00:08:47: Yeah its only because i'm an engineer at heart And...I'd like to fix The biggest problem I can fix myself.

00:08:58: Maybe building a banking as a service platform is not the biggest thing that humanity needs today, but in my industry this was something

00:09:07: important.".

00:09:07: So we had... ...the big total addressable market?

00:09:14: What are other factors?

00:09:15: so they're important for your

00:09:16: idea?".

00:09:17: And so it's just for me again!

00:09:19: For me….

00:09:21: …I need to bring something new.

00:09:24: This is how I see things, this where i'm good at.

00:09:32: If we look it with another point of view then maybe can have an edge and bring something to the market?

00:09:40: I wouldn't build exactly same thing that someone else already did before.

00:09:47: Sometimes the edges are not so big.

00:09:49: I don't know.

00:09:51: if you look at Google, for instance.

00:09:52: When they launched Google?

00:09:53: Well it was just a certain gene.

00:09:56: but the biggest edge was simplicity of usage and that was big enough edge to launch Google.

00:10:04: It's super fast Super slick And just blank page with Google in your search.

00:10:09: That was enough to launch it.

00:10:12: So Swann we had this age different ways seeing product market interested all of our future clients and this is why we launched it.

00:10:25: So tell me a bit about like the exact problem that you defined before you started going for SWAN?

00:10:35: Okay,

00:10:36: so when we start with SWAN what problems do we solve at SWAN ?

00:10:42: When we launched our...when we started to play with the idea in Revolute, L-twenty six this kind of company.

00:10:52: So these kinds of NIO banks that had been launched with people who were not from the banking ecosystem.

00:11:03: and so every developers Every product people understood that wow you don't have to be a come from legacy bank To distribute some banking services You can.

00:11:18: So who are these guys?

00:11:19: How did they do

00:11:20: that?".

00:11:20: And so many people were asking themselves, how can I uh... Do that myself.

00:11:26: How can i offer accounts cards eyebands this kind of services?

00:11:31: um..so I felt That This was in the year and there were some platforms.

00:11:38: Uh banks Some banking as a service platform but allowed These creative People to To get these services.

00:11:47: platform that allows developers to create accounts with cards, cards with their own logo.

00:11:54: Mastercard cards, Visa cards and iPads but these platforms were not easy to use.

00:12:02: so if you wanted them or if your developer had a salesperson it would take like probably You had to talk then to Mastercard, you have to talk to the regulator.

00:12:16: Sorry to get into technical details about how we work but it was really hard to start working with these platforms.

00:12:24: My point of view is well.

00:12:26: if I'm a merchant and want to install Stripe It takes me five minutes maybe a little bit more But its super easy.

00:12:32: So as a merchant i can have payment page for Stripe in five minute.

00:12:36: so If Im a developer should be same way.

00:12:39: issueing cards Asshouldbeable to not understand how it works behind the scene, not understand regulation mastercard every technical details.

00:12:51: that's behind.

00:12:51: but I want to go on a sandbox.

00:12:55: iIwant to see documentation and start playing with it.

00:12:59: if have good fintech idea in middle of night start to work on this sandbox in the morning, go and pay with a selfie shoot card by myself or Croissant who started it.

00:13:13: So that was really what we had in mind.

00:13:15: And I don't want talk about my surcard... ...I don't wanna talk to the regulator.. ..I won't be safe!

00:13:20: Don't take any risk !

00:13:21: I just wanted create cards using my logo.

00:13:23: That's all !

00:13:24: This is what sparkled the idea of SWAN And i knew how do that safely for us for Swann, the developer and clients.

00:13:37: And so this is because I knew how to do that we decided to launch Swann.

00:13:42: What happened then?

00:13:44: You said you're an engineer by heart.

00:13:48: Did you search for co-founders first or did you try to validate the idea first Or were in your head like...I already know it's

00:14:07: there but don't need to validate.

00:14:18: How many years of experience in banking and fintech went into this gut feeling?

00:14:31: My career in fintech was in the first venture of Fintech.

00:14:41: I worked at Visa, even if the word fintex wasn't coin.

00:14:50: so again i knew what people were looking after.

00:14:53: So how are you approaching who to build with?

00:14:59: For me that's like music band.

00:15:03: When you create a startup, there was one guy I knew that wanted to create the company with him because he is amazing and it's his third time we work together.

00:15:14: so this guy is Nicolas Sezon.

00:15:15: He was my apprentice when i was twenty-nine years old, he was eighteen years old.

00:15:21: So he was an engineer but doing studies at the same time and we worked three years together in a first company, then I pulled him out from this company to my second venture.

00:15:35: And then fifteen years after... well i knew that the guy wanted to build a startup.

00:15:43: actually you know most of the time You need different minds and everything.

00:15:47: That's not what I feel with these guys.

00:15:49: We are not the same but quite similar In our way of thinking But were great working couple.

00:15:56: I know exactly how he feels, i know where is good at.

00:16:05: He knows that we don't have to talk too much about each other and when you fight a lot it's ok because we are safe.

00:16:17: Starting the company with him was no-brainer for me but we needed third founder so we looked for CTO.

00:16:27: Both of us were engineers and developers at the beginning, but we weren't that much into development.

00:16:35: We really wanted to have a CTO in our team.

00:16:38: when you look at your co-founder —and you can determine both— Were you looking for skill level or trust level?

00:16:51: Like if you have to like the fifty one forty nine percent, which of those two is like fifty-one percent at least?

00:16:58: That's a good question.

00:16:59: I never asked myself for me Trust it so obvious that yeah ski the source trust is off course most important But this is something easily fine.

00:17:12: Most of you can't trust most other people as kid is different and And the two co-founders I had where insanely skilled.

00:17:23: So Nicholas is probably one of the most impressive product guys I know and Mathieu Breton was a great developer as well, still a great developers.

00:17:37: Trusts were obvious with Nicolas because we had worked together for fifteen years.

00:17:43: so... And i fully recognize how important it to start this company with these guys because it was not only trust, but also fun.

00:17:54: When you go to work and know that you will love a lot in the day... ...and if there is some trouble or an issue… well yeah!

00:18:02: This is trust.

00:18:04: You can talk about your co-founder.

00:18:06: I change a lot And i wouldn't have started the company without him

00:18:12: With the co-founders who were searching.

00:18:14: did you already knew them for awhile?

00:18:17: or did you newly meet him?

00:18:19: Yeah, we newly met him.

00:18:22: How were you building the trust that was needed?

00:18:27: because trust is obvious and it's part of it.

00:18:30: throughout the process.

00:18:31: That's a good question.

00:18:33: We spent a lot time hanging out together before starting the company.

00:18:39: It's like an interview process.

00:18:40: You ask some questions, you must have the right feeling about it.

00:18:45: So we interviewed many candidates and ultimately felt super good with Mathieu And we knew that technically speaking was super-good.

00:18:55: But yeah!

00:18:56: The only discussions he had were not on how to build a code or everything.

00:19:04: It's really bad for us together.

00:19:07: What were things in other conversations with other potential co-founders that you're interviewing, the made?

00:19:14: you say no this person is not the right

00:19:16: one?

00:19:17: That's a good question.

00:19:19: Exactly like what I do with candidates You must try to understand how it drives someone For instance have strong value which is long term and if i understood many people want to be co-founder or entrepreneur because you can make money out of it, which is okay.

00:19:40: Totally fine with that.

00:19:41: but... That's not why I'm doing this.

00:19:46: Because i want to launch and build something.

00:19:53: so This probably the first thing for me to understand.

00:19:55: what motivates people to launch a company And I understood that with Matthew was not the case.

00:20:06: Again, I have nothing against money but it must be a secondary reward.

00:20:13: Not the first driver

00:20:15: Was is always the case also with your start-up or did you change once?

00:20:19: Ah

00:20:20: that's good question!

00:20:21: I was not CEO of my first startup and what i realized... ...was in great setup.

00:20:33: It was a big French e-commerce website in the years to two thousand.

00:20:37: That doesn't exist anymore, it's acquired by Raccoon in twenty eleven But so the CEO is probably one of the most smart guy we could have In Europe To start adventures but He wanted too make a billion francs at that time.

00:20:53: So One hundred fifty thousand A million euros...that was his goal he was saying And I realized that we had the European Amazon in the end at a time.

00:21:09: It was really, it's for the right moment where everything to build up but would be the nice website acquired by Hacquitin.

00:21:17: and well he made a lot of money and good people were created with value on every thing.

00:21:26: so this is also my second startup founder, so the CEO of my second startup, Lee Manetic who was a payment company this time.

00:21:37: I could see as well that his first drive, his first motivation is to build something but also make money...to sell.

00:21:45: after five years let's say and i saw firsthand when you have it in mind ...you don't build an great company!

00:21:53: You will be building good companies !

00:21:58: But you don't build a stripe, or an apple.

00:22:05: So that's why I'm talking so much about it because in a way is was a little bit disappointing and not what i wanted to do with one but going back maybe of course this isn't the only thing I checked.

00:22:25: Yeah, what was his drivers?

00:22:30: What exactly is the same question that with people you want in your team how do you behave when you're in conflict with others?

00:22:40: and all of this kind of questions.

00:22:43: And at the end of the day because we really spent a lot time with him before starting the adventure well are you happy to spend the whole night discussing?

00:22:56: you must be happy to spend a night with your co-founders, if not really shouldn't start the company.

00:23:04: Thank You for sharing!

00:23:05: How did you split equity?

00:23:08: I read some stuff about it like when the equities split equally between co-founder that's not best setup and everything.

00:23:17: I'm not sure that there is maybe some study about it.

00:23:23: So what we did this time was politically with Nicolas Cézon because, well... We came up with the idea and experience And we know how to beat him.

00:23:31: The third co-founder had less experience than us so he got two thirds of our experience.

00:23:40: He's happy for that!

00:23:45: spend a lot of time thinking about it.

00:23:49: But still today I'm super happy to have an equal share with Nicolas Eson, even if i am the CEO because he avoids many stupid discussions.

00:24:00: you know

00:24:01: Did You Have The Discussion Of Who's Doing The Ultimate Decision If There Is A Parry Situation?

00:24:08: It Was Quite Obvious With The Setup Because Again We Knew Each Other Quite Well And we Knew who was the right person for many things, and we didn't have to speak that much about it.

00:24:20: It's obvious that would be me from most of decisions but not product decision or tech decisions.

00:24:27: For business decision I don't know.

00:24:29: do we raise some money with an investor?

00:24:33: Do you spend on marketing ?

00:24:38: We want accept this kind clients because take some risk in terms of compliance.

00:24:43: So this was more up to me and the two other were more, product and tech side.

00:24:48: I want to double click on Nicolas becoming co-founder because you said he was your apprentice And over ten fifteen years earned his right in becoming a co-finder.

00:25:01: But what happened through these fifteen years working with him?

00:25:06: that made you think hey He's the right person That i wanted have onboard.

00:25:12: What are the things that he brought to the table besides the product expertise?

00:25:16: Well,

00:25:16: after one week of working with him when it was eighteen I knew this guy is amazing.

00:25:22: He's incredibly smart super hard worker and very funny which something quite important And i also recognize his charisma even if only eighteen at a time.

00:25:36: I don't know how to say that in English.

00:25:42: You spent three weeks during his summer managing young people, young scouts who were thirteen or fourteen years old and spending three weeks with them bringing them... So this is an amazing guy!

00:26:01: When you're eighteen being able be generous enough to spend three weeks of your vacation, to spend time with kids of thirteen and fourteen years old which is not what you want when you're naturally eighteen.

00:26:15: And it's an incredibly important management lesson that you learn only when you are eighteen!

00:26:22: So this guy even if he was super young had many qualities but well...he was a good developer in the team.

00:26:31: so I loved him.

00:26:34: Next company, I realized that he was also very good at managing projects.

00:26:41: Well...I was impressed by what you achieved and still a lot of fun with him!

00:26:48: Not only fun !

00:26:49: When we work together it's always ...you know.. You start an idea ,and then this guy finished because he got the idea And made better and talk again.

00:27:01: It works really well.

00:27:02: Like a working couple!

00:27:03: But when we started this one, that's where I realized it was not only good project manager but also like... Really.. A good leader That people followed him And not team of three or four but the team of hundred People would follow him.

00:27:23: because Yeah i think he is an amazing guy.

00:27:29: I admire him still today.

00:27:32: Why do you think he followed you for fifteen years before you then became co-founders?

00:27:38: No, because in a way it's waste from God and me many things.

00:27:44: but I like what you told me.

00:27:47: You're most of the time your right.

00:27:49: What you say is Right!

00:27:51: You know where to go...you know the right direction.

00:27:54: not details everything But..You Know what we should Do.

00:27:57: at Most Of The Time You see things before others, or you have an interesting point of view.

00:28:05: that makes me the thing I can't see.

00:28:11: So he really likes this quality and again at the end we like to work together.

00:28:20: We play with ideas together.

00:28:23: That's what people also like.

00:28:25: What are your biggest lessons on Managing people?

00:28:28: to give them direction so that they can also grow with you because if he would have had a feeling of Hitting the ceiling and there's no chance to grow beyond He probably will not have stayed.

00:28:38: Yeah, off course.

00:28:39: well I'm NOT micro manager at all.

00:28:43: That's not what i am.

00:28:44: naturally I like to see smart people.

00:28:48: Like too.

00:28:49: I admire people alot And quite soon I can recognize talents sometimes when they're young, but once i recognize talent this people is so much smarter than me at selling a product or so much smaller in finance.

00:29:11: And again that was not very self-confident CEO And in a way that helped me to make lot of room for other people.

00:29:27: To take enough place, sometimes not because I don't trust them enough... ...to have big role at the company and it's life!

00:29:37: But i think am good at delegating & giving people enough room for developing themselves

00:29:46: Being person who also often trust other people and then condenses and synthesizes opinions, thoughts advice to form decisions.

00:30:00: I know how hard it is balance between this as my opinion that i might have in mind versus hey need more data information on thoughts from the outside.

00:30:11: How are you making decision without giving others like where's a fine line between giving others too much room?

00:30:18: for something and not enough so that you don't like, where's the fine line?

00:30:22: Where do you feel comfortable making

00:30:23: decisions?".

00:30:24: That's a good question.

00:30:26: So first yeah I don't involve myself in every decision of course but even at the very beginning of the company And so i try to give my opinion In big... Ofcourse!

00:30:41: ...In big-big decisions Like..I dunno Should we go to Germany?

00:30:45: That was one of the decisions that... ...that we had to take.

00:30:49: And, of course it's a super difficult decision because you can- You will be never sure if its'a good decision.

00:30:55: No ?

00:30:56: You cannot have enough data and at the end of day At what moment should I make this decision ?

00:31:05: You must listen to everyone Because often i'm convinced by everybody who is wrong.

00:31:11: I love being wrong Because when I'm wrong, it means that i have a good team.

00:31:15: It mean okay if this guy managed to convince me That is not the right decision because he has strong convictions.

00:31:25: So yeah My job was probably to hire people and make a few decisions.

00:31:32: And thats it.

00:31:34: Are you kind of leader?

00:31:36: Because I talked with a lot founders who are like hey... ...I need to understand the set of skills and everything that's needed to build, for example product or go-to market.

00:31:50: Or marketing or whatever before I can hire someone and handover?

00:31:55: Are you kind of a person saying no i don't need that... ...I can hire an expert.. ..and trust this person?

00:32:01: It depends!

00:32:03: So we have been on developer so I can recognize good CTO.

00:32:09: I've been in product so i can recognize a good CPU.

00:32:14: I understood quite naturally how marketing our cells work, even if I learned so many things as one that I didn't understand about go-to market.

00:32:28: but...I must admit that I haven't be good at the beginning for what they call scale functions like finance and HR.

00:32:37: I thought that, well...that's okay.

00:32:39: That shouldn't be difficult!

00:32:41: That is way more difficult than what i thought at the beginning and did some mis-higher for these rules.

00:32:50: And so..i had to see how this function worked before hiring right persons.

00:32:56: eventually Sooo....and im not an analytic guy the guy who will understand exactly what, for example, such a chief people officer should do.

00:33:08: Exactly the list of things that he or she should do before hiring him and her So... But so it's totally okay when you're in company with less than one hundred people but when your become beer.

00:33:24: this was something I liked And thats why we also now have a deputy CEO.

00:33:30: That's one or COO if you want, that really helps us to scale and be a little bit more into the numbers.

00:33:39: Into the analytic part of scaling the company.

00:33:44: That is absolutely necessary And I'm not this guy.

00:33:48: We will get back to that point definitely.

00:33:50: i'll double click on it later because one thought was made by some mis-hires.

00:33:59: What were the things that you changed in your approach to hiring throughout the years?

00:34:04: Because, hey I made X Y and Z. And I realized this led to mis-hires.

00:34:11: for example compared today

00:34:14: First people we hired process was really intuitive... ...and it's not good.

00:34:19: The first one or company ?

00:34:21: The first companies Even the first ones from the company i've built before were small companies.

00:34:29: I mean, the two have been acquired when there are less than thirty people in a company.

00:34:35: so not very first one on the e-commerce website.

00:34:37: but i was a tiny co-founder and it wasn't real co-founders.

00:34:41: But those two other ones... When you're less then thirty people It's not the same thing that when your three hundred people You know everyone!

00:34:48: So we had processes at time where more.... super proud of what we did at the time.

00:34:57: So, two or three interviews asking maybe sometimes a question to people and then hire them if they like it!

00:35:04: And that's not how you do... But so many things have been written.

00:35:09: since there were no playbooks for building startups fifteen years ago or twenty years ago It was hard knowing exactly how to do right things.

00:35:21: And so, well yeah now we have people in the talent acquisition team that helped us to structure correctly how to hire uh...the right talents and everything.

00:35:33: With a scorecard with different people trying to assess same qualities at the end of day because you spot some blind spots your friends, colleagues see things that you don't and sometimes they do not.

00:35:58: But when it comes to C-Levels.

00:36:02: now we need the board approval for hiring a C-level.

00:36:07: It helps because there is also good experience of seeing what people have at their boards are good with products we know what to do.

00:36:22: But finance, people every company face the same issues.

00:36:27: when you're at three hundred you... Same for finance.

00:36:31: You can compare companies just without balance sheets and understand how a company works Just with numbers.

00:36:37: That's way of seeing a company.

00:36:39: that not only ways but finances is a point of view comparing companies.

00:36:46: So board members are extremely good, in my opinion for helping us to hire the right people who scale the company like financepeople or HR people.

00:36:58: One thing that I want to understand as well was why were you thinking about bringing on investors?

00:37:03: That's easy because what we do... You can't do it without an investor.

00:37:11: There are such massive investments before going live that it's not doable without investors.

00:37:17: I mean, we built the infrastructure of a bank almost so... It is like you want to build a tunnel under the channel, you can't bootstrap this kind of company.

00:37:37: You must invest millions or billions of euros for that tunnel and other channels And we will make money out of it ten years after.

00:37:44: That's normal So far as not ten years later.

00:37:47: But hey We needed twenty million to launch one.

00:37:53: We couldn't have done without these first investments Absolutely impossible.

00:37:58: You raised a hundred million by now.

00:38:01: in total recently was a forty two million Euro series B plus extension.

00:38:07: What are your biggest learnings on fundraising?

00:38:10: That's not the most interesting part of building a company.

00:38:14: for me It's like, you know if you're asking to the best restaurant in town Hey what did you learn about getting a credit to open new restaurants?

00:38:25: doesn't really care.

00:38:26: He has to do it, he must do that.

00:38:28: something is necessary.

00:38:29: you can't open your restaurant without an investment.

00:38:31: but thats not what you think about at night.

00:38:35: At night You're just thinking of the best food I could do and that's what i'm thinking about.

00:38:40: so Okay when its time for fundraise Im focused on fundraising this important time as CEO of a company But actually... I give my existing investors.

00:38:52: they tell me what to do.

00:38:53: on that, I trust them.

00:38:55: Because we are aligned and they know when to raise... They know with who?

00:39:00: We should raise!

00:39:02: And since our interests are aligned because they don't want too much delusion That's okay !

00:39:11: It has never been... Sorry the first round were very difficult.

00:39:16: The other rounds were supernatural.

00:39:19: So it was a very first round was very difficult because investors didn't understand what we wanted to build.

00:39:28: It's quite complicated to explain the age I was talking about at the beginning, so what would make us different and why?

00:39:37: We were so excited by the product but apart from this seed round that it was difficult... The rest is super natural!

00:39:44: Because you are showing that you can built and already had a trust in industry or

00:39:51: Why?

00:39:51: Series A, series B and series B extension.

00:39:54: So series a we had what was needed in twenty one to raise money.

00:40:00: We are the good team And we have The platform.

00:40:04: that were product network and traction from.

00:40:08: Can you share how much revenue where you're at?

00:40:11: Absolutely

00:40:12: stupid.

00:40:12: when we raised our series again it wasn't twenty-one.

00:40:15: You know we had like thirty thousand K half monthly revenue.

00:40:22: so three hundred million euros of annualized revenue which was a really, really low to raise as the sixteen million euros we raised at that time.

00:40:35: It was easiest round.

00:40:37: with it again...it was twenty-twenty one and I think the investors were right to invest in Swan because the valuation was okay compared what is today And Series B and Series B extensions, it's all about numbers.

00:40:54: It's sort of your revenue reputation on the market.

00:40:59: or are you clients happy with what you build?

00:41:05: Is there a potential to make more?

00:41:07: That is it!

00:41:10: I expect Series C and Series D because we will raise again.

00:41:14: that would be the same.

00:41:15: To get an understanding where standing at today I'm quite sure you're not comfortable sharing actual revenue numbers at the moment.

00:41:24: Yeah,

00:41:25: but are there other numbers like for example customers transaction volume and stuff that helps?

00:41:31: Of course!

00:41:33: And actually i realized we haven't talked about what were doing as one so briefly im gonna pitch to people on the numbers.

00:41:45: So what's one?

00:41:46: We are building a banking as-a-service platform.

00:41:49: What does it mean ?

00:41:51: It means we can say differently, we build a new bank like Revolute, N-twenty six, Contour... This kind of company.

00:42:01: The only thing is to open this account.

00:42:04: you won't download this one up!

00:42:07: We're white label and behind the scenes.

00:42:09: so other companies self to their own clients.

00:42:15: bank accounts with iBans, with Mastercard cards or Mastercard card.

00:42:19: With the Rhone logo.

00:42:21: so sorry it's not Bank Accounts its E-Money Accounts.

00:42:24: I have two.

00:42:25: this is important.

00:42:26: we don't have a banking license.

00:42:27: We have an E-money license but like Contour again Like This kind of company and It doesn't change A lot for The end client.

00:42:37: So a little bit like when you go To the supermarket And When You buy butter from with the brand of a supermarket.

00:42:44: I'm sure sometime you do that, You know it's not the supermarkets who does better right?

00:42:48: And so we do the same.

00:42:51: The only exception is if don't make butter We make banking services for others can distribute them and embed into their own software in to their own product.

00:43:04: So for instance your an accounting software software where you can pay your invoices, distribute cards and everything.

00:43:19: So again we do a little bit like Revolute & Contour.

00:43:24: And so in terms of... Where are today's volume?

00:43:30: We're more relevant for small-medium businesses.

00:43:33: We open accounts to SMBs most the time not only but also And we have a one hundred fifty partners who use our service to distribute banking services to their own clients.

00:43:45: We have eighty thousand accounts and uh...we make twenty billion euros of payment every year, most of them are transfers, SEPA payments ...and one billion euros per year card payments.

00:44:03: so issue cards with the logo for partners.

00:44:06: in terms of numbers this is where We grew one hundred percent in twenty four and we should be able to grow a little bit less this year but still with the very nice growth.

00:44:17: How hard was it to find your first partner or customer?

00:44:21: Again, with these start-ups... This wasn't an issue!

00:44:27: And actually, something quite strange about our industry is that if you create new banks We'll have people waiting for you to open an account with them, but for good reason.

00:44:43: Because the other banks don't want to work with him because while we are in a special industry where you can't open accounts to everyone or you shouldn' t open accounts through every one.

00:44:54: and so before even just because there was buzz about what were creating at least in Paris uh...we had I dunno like maybe one request week to open our services.

00:45:08: And so, our goal was just to find the right customers to start work with again.

00:45:15: we were super lucky here with that.

00:45:17: We had a lot of traction even before launching the product which is... ...we were super-lucky again.

00:45:24: I'm totally realized that we have some luck about it.

00:45:28: Time to market is so important!

00:45:31: I built other companies before and they are super good ideas but They were too early, for instance.

00:45:37: The one I built in two thousand seven.

00:45:39: it would have been a success in twenty fifteen.

00:45:42: question For everyone who wants to understand a bit deeper like because sometimes i think is easy To understand what you're doing but understanding What are the most common and best use cases?

00:45:53: Like Who Are the companies that You like serving And they need your product where you're like.

00:46:02: hey That's A perfect use case.

00:46:04: Okay, I can talk to you about the best use cases.

00:46:07: we have Small and medium businesses.

00:46:11: well let's talk about banks retail banking.

00:46:14: so You as an individual?

00:46:15: Do you have a bank account ?

00:46:17: And i'm sure with your company you also have another bank account.

00:46:21: I believe that today legacy banks offer good services too To individuals and big enterprises.

00:46:29: you won't see Mercedes opening a Revolute account and even maybe your parents won't open a revolute account either because they are quite satisfied with their banks.

00:46:40: But that's not the case for small-medium businesses.

00:46:43: SMBs aren't happy with their bank And why?

00:46:47: Just Because For SMB, merging banking & accounting is killer combo but like really changes life of Small and medium businesses, they don't have time.

00:47:01: They don't enough people in finance team to.

00:47:06: I Don't know when you make a... When you have an invoice to pay To copy paste an iBan In bank system everything.

00:47:14: so all of this should be integrated And that's why Revolute business has So much traction.

00:47:20: That's why Konto as so much traction at least some part of Europe And where we do the most where we are the most relevant.

00:47:31: It's when accounting software or what we call pre-accounting software, so every tools for finance can be invoice management softwares it could be expense management softwairs and accounting softwaurs all of these softwaures For SMBs.

00:47:47: they need to integrate banking services.

00:47:49: Let me give you an example.

00:47:51: if your app that allows you take a picture when you go to the restaurant of the receipt, extract a VAT and send it into your accounting system.

00:48:04: It's so much easier to distribute a card at the same time!

00:48:07: So if pay with your card being you have notifications...it sounds obvious now because this is how it works.

00:48:14: but that's not how we worked five years ago.

00:48:17: Five years ago this isn't most people who work there banking stack in a way and accounting stack, they had two systems.

00:48:29: A bank account on one part And an accounting system for another part.

00:48:34: For SMBs merging both is super important.

00:48:38: So we are super relevant to our accounting software.

00:48:42: This where you have the most success With us from some Spenilane.

00:48:47: So Penny Lane is a French accounting startup.

00:48:50: It's the unicorn.

00:48:51: it's massive company.

00:48:53: so penny lane plus one.

00:48:56: We have very.

00:48:57: we are better product than let's say revolute business but us without pennilane, and we don't do anything and Penny Lane.

00:49:05: with that one something lacks in the product.

00:49:09: so its really a little bit like see Revolute as an iPhone and we see ourselves as Android.

00:49:15: We need other software to distribute our product.

00:49:19: Fair points, so you said... You had enough inbound at the beginning?

00:49:26: And then at the same time you have decided who is best partner for start with and manage growth because it's probably something once you can roll out Other stuff, you need to roll out the first time.

00:49:44: The second time get to learn and understand what's happening.

00:49:47: so how did you pick your partner?

00:49:50: Because I've been in industry for quite some time... ...I know that the first thing we had to manage was risk especially when we released our system.

00:50:02: We had many, many crypto companies that wanted to work with us because they couldn't find the payment rails... ...the banking system and allow them start their business.

00:50:14: And we didn't want do it!

00:50:15: Because in terms of anti-money laundering which is something very important for Bank... It was not a good idea !

00:50:24: We were not mature enough to sell them.

00:50:26: so thats why decided to focus our cell phone Non-risky business on vanilla business.

00:50:32: Okay, what is the end client if the end clients?

00:50:36: Is let's say restaurant or bakery that just want to open Bank account to pay some flour or two Some butter To make some bread.

00:50:47: That's fine.

00:50:49: This is something we understand.

00:50:51: this is something We can work with.

00:50:53: so the first thing and again It's totally written for our industry when you launch and you regulate it fintech, You should focus first on Vania clients before starting to work with other companies.

00:51:06: So this is the first thing managing risk.

00:51:09: And a second thing of course if so If want make good product then need good client as well.

00:51:16: We were lucky enough find the good start-ups who helped us to build our product because we desperately needed some feedback.

00:51:26: We were super proud of what we built, but the platform that was launched in twenty-one is not the same at all as today's one.

00:51:34: so they are like us – product people and tech people who trust each other and recognize their talents and who are eager for work with them.

00:51:48: The first two years with regulation and building the platform for like a super intense time.

00:51:55: What became the main challenge after you launched the platform?

00:52:01: Was it still product, was it still regulation?

00:52:05: Did it become go-to market at some point?

00:52:08: what were your biggest challenges then?

00:52:10: Well everything...the first three or four years I would say where easy.

00:52:17: Okay, you have some pressure because you're not live and because your burning money And everything but she don't have clients.

00:52:23: So when he doesn't have plans You don't know problems?

00:52:26: Uh-huh Well, we didn't have any your prayer of news so you don't need grows because your prayer new.

00:52:31: so life was easy at that time.

00:52:34: No Of course when you alive then That's one.

00:52:37: the that's when they real adventure starts and saw.

00:52:43: Everything is difficult.

00:52:45: having good product is difficult.

00:52:47: Having more clients is difficult.

00:52:51: Scaling the team, it's difficult.

00:52:54: Yeah everything is difficult.

00:52:55: I mean building a company Is hard.

00:52:59: It's harder than what you think when you start.

00:53:02: Its great experience as well, its super nice adventure.

00:53:07: but maybe The only luck we had with Swan was yeah this natural traction that We got from the market.

00:53:15: Apart from that, the rest was not super easy.

00:53:18: Maybe the other luck we had... ...was the atmosphere and culture because again I think the co-founders loved eachother And so were very happy to go to work.

00:53:31: It's a really good atmosphere Not only of fun but also excellence.

00:53:37: The first three and half years nobody left the company Nobody!

00:53:42: We have let some people go But nobody decided to leave the company because of this atmosphere.

00:53:49: So I think that was two easy things at a beginning, at least.

00:53:53: Commercial traction... We had these for us and then culture which is very good naturally The rest we struggled like every company

00:54:05: How are you making sure your growing as fast?

00:54:09: Personally

00:54:11: This is hard.

00:54:12: I told you that i was not the most self-confident CEO... ...you can find, but I know it.

00:54:20: And I know that it has some pros and some... It is a strength in a way as well again because.. ..I can recognize the talents of others.

00:54:30: But yeah!

00:54:34: You need to put yourself into question all time.

00:54:38: Having a board having investors can be good for that as well, because sometimes they show you... You're not in the right direction.

00:54:49: And so each time I realized it was bad enough at doing something.

00:54:55: this is when it's best to hire other people who help me do what i can't and re-try to focus myself on.

00:55:06: Where am I strong at?

00:55:08: If i was able to build this, that means that I'm stronger than something.

00:55:12: Let's not try and become better with my weakness.

00:55:16: let's hire other people who can fix it And focus on where we are good.

00:55:21: But when you don't have the right people... wow!

00:55:25: You will have a hard time but now is ok.

00:55:30: We've got our team around me.

00:55:35: First question, do you think your more self-confident now than you were six years ago when you started?

00:55:42: Yeah.

00:55:43: In a way of course... Again I already built some nice companies but confidence comes with ...I don't want to say success because i dont thinks one is successful.

00:55:59: we are not profitable yet and We're not there yet, but at least we've done something.

00:56:08: We make a lot of revenue our product is recognized on the market.

00:56:11: so Of course confidence come with success in a way.

00:56:15: So when you manage to do some thing When can't ride bike and first time wow I can ride it You become self-confident.

00:56:23: then you ride the bike And don't think about anymore.

00:56:26: Then when you think about it yeah i can ride a bike.

00:56:29: That's same for me.

00:56:31: run a startup.

00:56:32: So it comes from that, but the difference is with the bike... The road doesn't change all the time and with start-ups the roads changes all times especially when you scale.

00:56:46: so its not the same job as launching a company with three co-founders to running a company of thirty people who has already quite a challenge.

00:56:56: then to run a company for about three hundred people.

00:56:58: thats'nt To change your role, to change what you do and let others tell that you don't do the right things sometimes.

00:57:09: You must leave this room for feedback which is very important... ...you must be open to it!

00:57:15: I hope i am?

00:57:16: I think so!

00:57:17: And thats all !

00:57:19: I also recognize because you are a founder.. ..you dont have choice Because its very hard for a company to change the CEO of a company In the first ten years, maybe after that when a company is more established.

00:57:34: Yeah why not?

00:57:35: That's really not the same job.

00:57:36: Why not at the beginning?

00:57:37: you need The vision and energy of other founder in the culture of the founder so You don't have to show us your must scale with the company and change away work all the time And With some phase I had more trouble with some face than that with another.

00:57:56: you said you brought on a deputy CEO, somehow COO depending on how you name the role.

00:58:04: When was the right time for that?

00:58:06: I should have done it earlier!

00:58:09: I would say after series B when we reached something like around ten million euros of revenue.

00:58:18: so this is where...when we approached two hundred people in a company one hundred fifty.

00:58:25: So this is where KPIs, metrics... OKRs.

00:58:31: Aligning every team so they work effectively together not just because like the founders and you meet them at a coffee... No no no!

00:58:42: You need that to structure correctly for your company.

00:58:47: I'm not good with it And i realized it.

00:58:50: This was when i realized we needed some people to help us, really give the tempo and rhythm of the company.

00:59:02: And it took me almost one year to find a right person... ...and then probably six months for this person too!

00:59:11: To be effective.

00:59:11: so these eighteen months were probably the hardest time at Swan for me.

00:59:19: So that's something funny.

00:59:21: when you build a startup You think When you're at the seed round, you think that after series A it would be OK.

00:59:28: And when we are in series A... when we'd be a ten million ARs ... We will be established!

00:59:33: Unfortunately no !

00:59:35: The stress is always the same and sometimes the stress grows bigger than before.

00:59:42: so it depends.

00:59:43: but yeah for me the hardest time was probably two years ago when I realized that, uh...I needed someone else in the company to help me.

00:59:55: What changed since your deputy CEO is effective?

00:59:59: So much!

01:00:01: Many many things change.

01:00:02: so we have now a good ... We follow the right KPIs.

01:00:18: pilot the company with right tools.

01:00:21: So, yeah I feel that we are ten X more efficient than what were eighteen months ago.

01:00:29: That's normal no?

01:00:30: We're more mature and same way... Yeah!

01:00:34: Put something that isn't fun but you need when your more then two hundred people put some process to run a company.

01:00:42: How did your role change since then?

01:00:44: ?

01:00:44: I accepted share not to be the only one who talked with a company.

01:00:51: And I think people were super happy to have another voice at the company, you know?

01:00:55: Every Monday morning we had a kick-off meeting of ten or fifteen minutes where we give news about what is important for next week and i'm still doing it!

01:01:07: But then we also have all ends, like once a month.

01:01:11: And this is the best time for the deputy CEO to talk about processes... ...to talk about numbers and KPI's and everything….

01:01:19: …and people need that as well!

01:01:23: What has changed in terms of process?

01:01:26: So I think we've got good roles together.

01:01:29: We work very well together but don't have the same qualities.

01:01:36: I have one question in mind that is like a bit of different topic.

01:01:40: But what you mentioned as, You now have the right people around you and so What happens in your mind once?

01:01:47: The question arises

01:01:49: if

01:01:49: A person then you hired a year ago two years ago three months ago Is still the right person?

01:01:56: That's hard especially when you're such big team because you listen to everyone And every one has an opinion on Everyone.

01:02:04: So you must listen.

01:02:05: what you have to listen.

01:02:07: You must be objective, so set some people.

01:02:11: Everybody is different.

01:02:13: First there's a gut feeling.

01:02:14: of course Now I've got strong gut feelings that we're the perfect team At least for this stage.

01:02:20: where are today?

01:02:21: But it will change in one or two years.

01:02:24: You can put every process Every numbers Everything at end-of-the-day as gut feeling Especially me.

01:02:34: You can assess performance and you put every process that you want.

01:02:38: A gut feeling makes it or at one moment, if you feel like... ...you don't have the right person in a right role.

01:02:46: Are there situations where you put processes over gut feelings?

01:02:50: Process helps to get your gut feeling right.

01:02:54: It's not enough but sometimes yes because you follow processes then your decision changes Because you realize no I'm wrong I had the good feeling that this guy was not efficient, but no.

01:03:08: It's just because his task is much harder than what i thought.

01:03:12: and so yeah again see why.

01:03:14: i'm super happy to have now at the PUTCO But for the sea level a good feeling still quite important.

01:03:21: We talked about making bold and big decisions And one question you always have Is hey we're live in your case France one of our first customers, we have the use cases here.

01:03:36: And then the question arises are we going more in depth?

01:03:39: In the front French market and just like try to scale in here or will also opening a second country which you did?

01:03:48: Germany already mentioned it.

01:03:50: and how were you making this decision between focus on the french market Tearing the focus apart in quotation marks by opening Germany as a second country.

01:04:06: So when we started swan, I told you where he wanted to build something big and then one again.

01:04:13: so We had some.

01:04:14: uh i didn't have like.

01:04:16: i don't know exactly what would the company look Like five years after or ten years After but i knew that they want it to be able good product.

01:04:24: and I knew because this is a mistake i did in my previous company that they didn't want to focus on the french market.

01:04:30: So,I didn't wanted build a product that was focused on tackling the French market... I'm super french!

01:04:38: I've never lived abroad.

01:04:42: My startup before were tackling the french markets.

01:04:46: That's exactly why I don't wanna do it again.

01:04:50: And so where we went?

01:04:53: Eight in the company, I remember.

01:04:55: We took a decision to defrage The Company by hiring someone who didn't speak French that he was German He was happy to relocate To Paris So it was quite big challenge for him But changed whole company because It switched mindset of the company.

01:05:17: the day you arrived You arrive and then everybody had to stop to write in French, stop talking in French.

01:05:26: In most of the meetings we were only eight so he was here almost all the time and so we had to switch to English And we have to change the way we see ourselves.

01:05:37: So day one We wanted to leverage this nice thing that we have in Europe.

01:05:42: You know again where special industry you can't.

01:05:46: it's not because your a bank in France but you can serve Companies, sorry clients all over the world.

01:05:54: If you're a bank in Nigeria You can serve clients in Nigeria.

01:05:58: if your Bank In The U.S..You Can Serve Clients In The u.s But Europe if you are A Bank in France?

01:06:04: You Can Serve People Everywhere in Europe in the European Union and that's one of the great things about the european union.

01:06:12: And we wanted to leverage this day One.

01:06:14: so as This was Going outside of France was not like a choice that we made along the way.

01:06:23: This is something I wanted to do day one and it wasn't even an equation.

01:06:29: but when, how did this decision come about?

01:06:36: So yeah... We decided to go Germany after almost three years.

01:06:40: so in the very beginning of our project

01:06:44: what's the hardest part?

01:06:46: Launching Germany.

01:06:48: I don't consider that we fully succeeded in launching a Germany yet because That's not our biggest market outside of France today.

01:06:57: What's the biggest market?

01:06:58: It's Spain and And the Netherlands is not far in Germany.

01:07:03: they're Germany, Netherlands are equal to day.

01:07:06: But well, that's another big success because the German is much bigger country.

01:07:10: Of course There two things first.

01:07:16: First, the market is very different.

01:07:19: So accounting software.

01:07:21: actually it's quite surprising how way more mature in France Spain and Netherlands than what they are in Germany I think today.

01:07:33: i think this will change in next decade for other German people.

01:07:38: but You have still a lot of legacy players and no startup that really managed to rock the boat here.

01:07:50: So we didn't like an easy product market fit day one, I think were having it now with startups integrating swan-like accountable for instance providing good services to freelancers.

01:08:06: We also had some good success with benefit cards in Germany but that's really special for your market.

01:08:15: So first, the market was organized differently and then maybe... But I don't think so!

01:08:20: Some people at Swam say it may not be easy to buy a French product from German companies but honestly i do'nt think its true.

01:08:27: when you have the best products People are super happy to take it.

01:08:32: It is just that The Market is organized different in Germany than what it is in France And while we also had to manage German specificities, especially talking to Bafin which is a German regulator who was different than France.

01:08:49: But that's what makes our company interesting adapting ourselves to every market.

01:08:55: as you said You also have like for example Spain and Netherlands.

01:08:58: So What became your playbook to launch new countries?

01:09:04: So again, we have a special industry where there are lots of compliance requirements.

01:09:10: We can't mess with the law and what we need to do... so if you do an MVP for each country in the MVP minimum viable product, your compliance must be perfect!

01:09:29: This is the first thing we have to build.

01:09:31: It takes us one year approximately, to launch a new country so We make it compliance perfect but in terms of products Meh...it's not perfect!

01:09:41: We know that we don't make The best product In our country because there Is SO much To do in each country That you Don't Do With Day One.

01:09:52: and then we find Our First Client And Then We Build A Product with Them Exactly What?

01:09:58: the way we did it in France three years ago.

01:10:01: So this is our product, but for marketing I think we have our own secret sauce today!

01:10:06: We've got a great marketing team.

01:10:08: that's good at making some noise when you launch a country and yeah...we really follow a playbook of marketing launches.

01:10:20: We built that for Germany the first time.

01:10:24: It was OK-ish, but for Spain and Netherlands and then Italy we did.

01:10:28: it really have a good playbook for the marketing

01:10:33: lot.

01:10:33: When you look at the organization when it comes to managing more countries what functions do keep central?

01:10:42: And what functions are then country specific?

01:10:46: That's very good question.

01:10:47: That's a very, very good question because even if we are European... So I used to say it is one that we're not French.

01:10:55: We aren't German or Spanish with Europeans.

01:10:59: Actually we try to be like...we are centralized and this the way i work.

01:11:08: Before.

01:11:08: being two thousand people in your company, you should be centralized as much possible.

01:11:13: product tech is built in France.

01:11:16: It's built in Paris marketing Finance People.

01:11:21: Most of it is in Paris so most of our team Is In Paris.

01:11:26: this is how which works?

01:11:27: It's not perfect on especially for a product.

01:11:29: that's not necessarily easy For French product manager Not necessarily a french product manager because We have a lot of international people.

01:11:38: That's one.

01:11:38: Paris is not as international, that has Berlin but still we have seventeen nationalities at one.

01:11:45: But so it's not easy for someone who lives in paris to understand the pain of German customer.

01:11:51: and this Is uh The One of our big challenge how the product managers can?

01:11:57: Marketing People Can really Understand what?

01:11:59: We need To do for the german market.

01:12:02: once we fix that I think It's more important for product managers, marketing people to be in Paris.

01:12:08: Being able talk directly with the right people on the team.

01:12:12: For Germany.

01:12:13: we should do that!

01:12:14: We must... The KWIC which is something important from my industry works this way and we found a good lawyer who can help us.

01:12:22: then it's much easier for Mexicans move within our organization than if these people were in Berlin having meetings with us over Zoom and trying to explain what we should do.

01:12:34: So I prefer people less expert on the market but that can move the organization directly in our office, so there are some functions which of course need to have an insight.

01:12:53: We need some people who speak German.

01:12:58: So, of course we have a sales team on site.

01:13:02: And... We also have a compliance team onsite.

01:13:06: so these are the two teams that really need to have an onsite.

01:13:10: The rest is in Paris.

01:13:13: I want one more topic before letting you go.

01:13:20: The question i had in mind was In let's say two or three years You're sitting here again Which hypotheses have to be proven for the two-to three years being a success?

01:13:32: I love this question because, i think... ...I don't see this one as a success today.

01:13:36: But we can say that it's one of the successes in two or three years.

01:13:40: Ah!

01:13:40: It is not easy at all.

01:13:43: I do not want necessarily to be profitable in these three years but.. ..I really want you guys to stop investing and be profitable if possible.

01:13:52: We are not far from there yet And I really want us to say, yeah.

01:13:57: Now if we stop to invest it could be fully profitable now because the company is an organization that needs money.

01:14:10: So this is first thing.

01:14:12: and second you feel when there's such a place on market nobody can text your seat.

01:14:22: That not the case at all.

01:14:23: today I see myself competing directly with, first with legacy banks but also with Revolut and Konto.

01:14:34: And these guys are giants!

01:14:36: So we need to become much bigger than what we have today... ...to be able to think okay.. We're at a place where it would be hard for us to replace them.

01:14:47: Today they haven't done that many... Eighty thousand accounts Out of twenty million SMBs in Europe is really nothing.

01:14:59: But we're on a good

01:14:59: path!

01:15:00: I would be happy to do an update at some point and then let's see if i travel to Paris this time once you are here in Berlin right now.

01:15:08: but thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts, experience.

01:15:14: give some insights into Swan and your journey as the founder because they also talk quite quite personal.

01:15:22: I really enjoyed it, i will definitely link to your LinkedIn and swan in the show notes so that everyone can follow

01:15:29: up

01:15:29: and research a bit more if interested.

01:15:33: .I just want to say thank you ,and wish u great time until next time.

01:15:39: Thank You Fabian!

01:15:44: and conversation with Nikola.

01:15:45: And it was a lot of fun because he wasn't trying to oversell saying that Swan is not a success yet, even when they raised one hundred million crossed the ten million in ARR for their first Series B. so you can only estimate where there are at moment with their Series B plus extension A team of three-hundred people.

01:16:03: So very honest an open conversation on many topics like also leadership and personal development as founder & CEO which I really appreciate.

01:16:13: So I hope you took something from the conversation.

01:16:16: If you did, please subscribe to the podcast wherever your listening or watching and refer it to a friend.

01:16:22: if someone who should see this episode My name is Fabian You can find me on LinkedIn Fabiantausch TAUSCH Or send an email with feedback to fabian at unicornbakery.de.

01:16:36: Thankyou so much for listening And See you in next episode.