Why Your Phone Addiction is no Coincidence & How to Cure it (2x Best-Selling Author Nir Eyal on becoming Indistractable & Building Products People Love)

00:00:00: Most people will tell you the opposite of distraction is focus.

00:00:03: That's not exactly right.

00:00:04: The opposite of distractions, NOT focus!

00:00:06: The opposite Of Distraction Is

00:00:08: Procrastination social media addiction and excuses for postponing things You actually should have done.

00:00:14: For all these Things there s Actually one simple solution.

00:00:17: You And I both know we are checking Social Media way too much Spending Too Much Time Online.

00:00:24: Todays Episode Explores Why This?

00:00:26: No Coincidence.

00:00:27: There s a proven framework called the habit loop that Nier Eyal is explaining to us, which shows how products are tricking our brain into addiction.

00:00:44: Uh, I'm always on my phone.

00:00:49: It's not my fault.

00:00:50: somebody is doing it to me.

00:00:51: If you're a grown adult gonna be your responsibility because the media companies The news isn't going tell you hey stop watching so much news go have a life.

00:00:58: Nereal Is a two times best-selling author of the books.

00:01:01: hooked and indestructible.

00:01:03: Neer explains his framework for becoming indestructible because it is the most important skill in our world today.

00:01:15: We do it.

00:01:33: How do we keep going off track?

00:01:35: They're not gonna tell you stop watching.

00:01:37: the CEO of Netflix said their main competition is sleep.

00:01:40: We're gonna have to this for ourselves if your kind a person who wants To live out there potential Who wants to look back at her life and not regret Not taking action when you had the chance.

00:01:49: then that's my audience.

00:01:51: That's kinda person I'm writing

00:01:52: for near.

00:01:55: thanks for joining, um very happy to have you on the show.

00:01:58: Thank You so much for having me great to be here

00:02:00: And a huge thank you to Max Elster, who introduced us.

00:02:04: A longtime friend and I'm very thankful for meeting you!

00:02:08: I read both of your books.

00:02:10: it's interesting...I talked with few people about meeting you.

00:02:14: they were like.

00:02:15: You have to ask him one thing.

00:02:16: He wrote hooks on building habit-forming products.

00:02:20: he also wrote indestructible about protecting yourself from being distracted all the time here and there.

00:02:29: And some people were like, it seemed a bit like he's excusing himself for writing hooked?

00:02:39: I don't have real concern but i just want to give you the question and then play do answer.

00:02:48: Yeah!

00:02:49: I'm guessing they didn't read the books because actually address exactly that in the book.

00:02:54: The idea is we can have our cake needed too That We Can Have Both.

00:02:58: We want habit-forming products to get us hooked to healthy habits.

00:03:02: And we wanna break the bad habits, two things that distract us.

00:03:06: So Hooked is about how do build healthy habits right?

00:03:08: How can use same type of technology like Facebook and Instagram and Whatsapp and Slack and Snapchat all used To Get Us Hooked.

00:03:15: But I didn't write a book for them!

00:03:17: I wrote this book For everybody who's building the kind of product That could actually improve our lives By Building Healthy Habits EdTech Fintech Healthcare All kinds Of Products That Can Get Us Hooked To Healthy Habit.

00:03:28: And then indistractable is about how do we get rid of the bad habits?

00:03:31: So it's not a negation.

00:03:32: It's a compliment.

00:03:33: Okay, fair and I also experienced that way.

00:03:37: But um...it still-I think one of the most common questions That people ask you very often.

00:03:43: so

00:03:44: Yeah i mean..i made the books look alike.

00:03:46: They were supposed to be kindof uh A set.

00:03:48: You know The colors are same and they're supposed To be similar because their on a similar theme.

00:03:52: Um but its suppose to two sides Of a similar coin.

00:03:56: Not too Again, you know not to negate anything.

00:04:00: I didn't write unhooked.

00:04:01: I wrote Indistractable because i think it's two separate skills that by being in the industry... ...I'm uniquely positioned for right?

00:04:10: Because a lot of times we get people from outside the industry saying oh tech is terrible!

00:04:14: Tech is melting your brain.

00:04:15: stop using technology and its stupid.

00:04:18: It's not nuanced Right?

00:04:19: do some technologies hurt us?

00:04:21: yeah because as Paul Virilio said when you invent this ship you invent the ship wreck.

00:04:25: Of course there are gonna be negative downsides to technologies, especially the kind that touch the lives of billions of people.

00:04:31: So...the right idea for those who actually in industry realize you have to minimize the harvests by creating technologies which fix last generation bad technology and don't stop using them make it better

00:04:45: I'd say definitely can be a reference to social dilemma as well like i think netflix series at pretty much all other people listening might have watched because we're all in the industry somehow.

00:04:57: So, and the question is not like what do you think about a social dilemma?

00:05:01: The thing...the question is more about if I'm planning to build a product it In the best case i am building something that's habit-forming and positive.

00:05:10: but What's my responsibility as a founder or as a products person?

00:05:18: How do I approach product building when my plan Is To Have Something That People Want to Use more often, but how do I define when it's too much?

00:05:28: Yeah so there are a lot of questions rolled up until one.

00:05:32: And uh...I was actually interviewed for the Social Dilemma movie interestingly enough and you didn't see him in the film though You seen me on the credits.

00:05:40: if look at my name they talked to over three hours about that movie.

00:05:49: So, so what I told them in the movies?

00:05:50: essentially look here's how we become indistractable.

00:05:53: I done my research for-for My second book and i basically gave him a formula And you didn't see it in the movie because of course they had an agenda.

00:06:02: Because when you tell people hey You know?

00:06:03: What yes media can be distracting because you know all Media is just potentially distracting.

00:06:09: For God sakes Netflix Is the people who brought you The Social Dilemma right.

00:06:14: how ironic is that?

00:06:15: The CEO of Netflix said their main competition is sleep.

00:06:19: So course it's potentially distracting, but so was the newspaper.

00:06:23: So as television.

00:06:24: So his football.

00:06:25: Right half of a half world is obsessed with watching football on TV.

00:06:29: Should the Football League tell you hey You've watched too much TV stop.

00:06:33: no they're not going to do That.

00:06:34: and yet we don't criticize them.

00:06:35: Why don't we criticize all other forms of media?

00:06:38: why do We only criticize social Media?

00:06:40: Well, because it's new and scary.

00:06:42: And whatever we have a new technology is that there will be more panic around this.

00:06:47: So I'm here to kind of calm tempers and help people look at all these things in an irrational way by realizing... That while certain people should be protected- okay?

00:06:56: I think children should also be protected!

00:06:58: I think those who are pathologically addicted should still be protected.

00:07:01: But thats the very small proportion of our population The rest of us.

00:07:04: if you're grown adults It'll be your responsibility right?

00:07:08: Because the media companies, the news is not going to tell you hey stop watching so much news go have a life.

00:07:13: Right The New York Times and CNN & Fox News And the football uh FIFA whoever they're gonna tell You Stop Watching.

00:07:21: We were Gonna Have To Do This For Ourselves!

00:07:25: So when I came to the Social Dilemma and gave them the formula They didn't put in the movie because it was against their.

00:07:32: They're their key thrust, which was to scare people.

00:07:35: because one of the best psychological tricks you can use To get people to pay attention or something is just to use fear.

00:07:41: right now The first rule of journalism as if it bleeds.

00:07:43: It leads the news media doesn't tell You what?

00:07:47: You need to know they Tell you What will get you to pay Attention to it.

00:07:50: and then Of course a social Media movie used this trick on you uh-to Get you scared so that you'd watch the Movie And talk about it.

00:07:57: Now I think that's incredibly unethical.

00:07:59: Talk about designing a product, it is very unethic to scare the shit out of people and not give them a solution you know are aware exists!

00:08:10: And so as if he walked into doctors office and says they have a terrible disease...and i had the medicine..i have cure but im not gonna give this to ya.

00:08:18: That would be malpractice.

00:08:20: So what the social dilemma movie did , i gave him credit.

00:08:23: They did good job at bringing out his problem.

00:08:25: There IS A PROBLEM.

00:08:26: I don't disagree But they didn't tell you the solution, and a solution is right here.

00:08:32: Right?

00:08:32: It's four steps anyone can implement to become indistractable.

00:08:36: So from personal perspective there so much we could do what most people did.

00:08:39: use of those people Do.

00:08:41: The social media companies are so bad They give me addicted!

00:08:44: Right government please do something.

00:08:46: Facebook stop doing that it all.

00:08:48: Mark Zuckerberg fault as opposed saying wait a minute There's about a hooker things than I Could do myself starting with hey how bout turning off Those stupid notifications like constantly distract You?

00:08:57: Maybe that's a start, right?

00:08:59: But we don't do that.

00:09:00: Why don't we do that?

00:09:01: because We want to think where addicted most people like To think.

00:09:05: oh there's nothing I can Do about it.

00:09:06: the word addiction comes from The latin word addictio which means slave.

00:09:09: Right People want to Think Oh It's not my fault right?

00:09:12: My kid is Constantly on his computer.

00:09:15: i'm always On my phone.

00:09:16: stop my fault.

00:09:17: Somebody Is doing it to me right.

00:09:18: but when We think About what it really is which is not an addiction for most people.

00:09:22: There are some exceptions, right?

00:09:24: Some people are pathologically addicted and as I said earlier those do deserve special protection.

00:09:28: children also deserves special protection but the vast majority of us it's a distraction But a distraction we don't like thinking that its a distraction because then i have to do something about It.

00:09:38: well thats no fun!

00:09:39: I had take personal responsibility.

00:09:41: blah who wants to do that?

00:09:42: can I just blame somebody?

00:09:44: No you know there will be huge chasm today.

00:09:48: theres a bifurcation between people who will let their time and attention be controlled by others, And People Who Say No I Will Control My Time & Attention Because i am Indistractable.

00:09:59: I think the first thing to highlight here is that we as an individual have to take ownership first for everything We consume and do To understand okay what Do WE want to with our days and weeks and months?

00:10:14: How do we want to approach lives?

00:10:16: And I think that's the number one thing to state here.

00:10:18: first from what you said.

00:10:21: Then, second is... What do i want to think about when im building a product?

00:10:27: From founder perspective or startup perspective and need some retention but also don't like how much can they have responsibility for themselves?

00:10:41: They just design their products as good.

00:10:45: Do I also have to build in, i'd say security layers myself?

00:10:50: Like how much is too much from a product perspective.

00:10:55: Absolutely okay.

00:10:56: so for the vast majority of people listening To this podcast right now if you're building a product or service and You want to get people hooked do you want to give people engage on your product or Service?

00:11:05: This Is not going be a problem.

00:11:06: why?

00:11:07: because nobody's getting addicted to sass enterprise software.

00:11:11: Right!

00:11:11: I wish we could Get People Hooked to exercising apps or two language learning apps, Or financial services products that can help them save money.

00:11:20: So almost everyone listening today You will never have the problem of people overusing your product.

00:11:25: The Problem?

00:11:26: People don't care about.

00:11:27: you're a product!

00:11:28: People dont want.

00:11:29: come back and use it.

00:11:29: That's the real problem.

00:11:30: Almost Everyone I've ever met in start up ecosystem.

00:11:33: They Don't Come To Me And Say Oh Gosh We Might Be Addicting People.

00:11:36: No The Problem Is Nobody Gives A Shit Right Like.

00:11:39: You Built This Product That People Say they Want Use that your business depends upon them using and yet they don't come back, right?

00:11:46: So that's where book number one comes in handy.

00:11:48: Now let's say however you do find that you have people who may overuse your product And so this is something I've written about for years now.

00:11:56: For over eight years i wrote an article About what I call a use-and abuse policy That I think companies Who are at risk of knowing They're addicting have a special responsibility.

00:12:08: And that responsibility is, if you know your are addicting people and not everybody who addicts people knows there's difference right?

00:12:15: So think about alcohol.

00:12:17: okay Alcohol manufacturers Have no idea of who the alcoholics are.

00:12:22: By the way we all now here in Germany You love beer just as much.

00:12:26: I do.

00:12:27: Not everyone has a glass of beers an alcoholic.

00:12:30: But why did somehow social media or these products?

00:12:33: People will get addicted to?

00:12:35: No, a very small proportion of people will become alcoholic.

00:12:38: A very small portion of people get addicted right?

00:12:40: Because an addiction is different from habit.

00:12:42: An addiction has persistent compulsive behavior Dependency on behavioral substance that harms the user.

00:12:48: Okay It's not the same thing as ooh.

00:12:49: I like it alot.

00:12:51: Its something that takes over your life and becomes- And its clinical disorder, its pathology.

00:12:56: So we toss this word around alot but Addiction have specific definition.

00:13:00: so if you As company know you are addicting people And of course tech companies do know, right?

00:13:08: TikTok and Instagram.

00:13:10: These kind of social media companies they actually do have personally identifiable information as does the New York Times.

00:13:16: if you log into your in new york times subscription They know how much time we're spending online.

00:13:20: If You Know I believe that after a certain number hours per week We are going to reach out And we're going to say after whatever number of hours a week, I don't know if it's thirty or forty.

00:13:34: I'm not sure what the company should decide.

00:13:37: We are gonna reach out and say hey you've been using our product To an extent that may indicate your struggling with addiction.

00:13:43: Can we help?

00:13:44: A very respectful message That says can we help?

00:13:47: then offer resources.

00:13:49: Can we put you on a blacklist so that you're not constantly playing this video game?

00:13:52: can We make sure You don't spend more money.

00:13:53: Can, we give you resources to help you if you're struggling with an addiction these resources That try and Help people With This pathology of Addiction.

00:14:00: So that's I think the policy that If companies Don't start To implement Governments will begin to implement On them and force Them to do this.

00:14:09: And i support it frankly because i Think just like we should protect children Because children, we've deemed as a society that certain things children can't do.

00:14:16: Children can't gamble in the casino they can go into bar and drink alcohol until a certain age.

00:14:21: We need to have certain protections for children because their not of sound body or mind.

00:14:24: The same goes with people who are pathologically addicted.

00:14:27: They also deserve special protection.

00:14:29: And so if you're a company, for example the gaming industry.

00:14:34: If your in media type industries those might be concerns that we think about and I would recommend to do is offer up one of these use-and-abuse policy For very small percentage people who may overuse.

00:14:47: I think it's important.

00:14:48: just have mind and be conscious about.

00:14:51: You don't need to overstress too early like few hundred users And you're just starting out and people are.

00:14:58: it's very unlikely at first that do will produce a lot of.

00:15:02: People overusing.

00:15:04: but if you can or see it or view the numbers going up enough, that more and more people are over using to try to think from start I think implementing when he have like let say just making up the number is what if would be tens of thousands of people then it's just way harder to implement such a process instead of building from day one and thinking at the same time.

00:15:29: As I said, or as you say, SaaS products won't be affected here.

00:15:33: The

00:15:34: vast majority will never effected.

00:15:36: but there is also different standard that we should hold companies too.

00:15:45: if they are depending on what people spending when use product.

00:15:51: If you are spending time with the product, it's a very low bar.

00:15:56: Right?

00:15:56: Why suddenly we're getting so upset about people spending time on social media when people have been watching hours of television aimlessly looking at the TV on their couch as opposed to living a life?

00:16:07: why is suddenly social media waste-of-time?

00:16:09: but watching football and tv was okay.

00:16:12: What's that?

00:16:12: can someone explain me the difference?

00:16:14: I would much rather have people interacting with each other than passively watching the television set Because all they're wasting is time.

00:16:20: And who am I to say that how you spend your time, Is bad but how i spent my time was good?

00:16:26: It's a pastime and we shouldn't judge people on the way of spending their time Where there are different ethical bars where now it becomes money.

00:16:32: So I don't know what laws were or where you are But in United States uh...I've been very Disheartened Very saddened To see That We legalized sports betting.

00:16:42: And its funny because You dont' See this much in the Ethical debate.

00:16:45: This is A Much Bigger Problem.

00:16:48: The consequence of overuse is not, oh you spent a bunch of time in front of the television or on your computer.

00:16:54: The consequences are that just blew up life savings!

00:16:58: So THAT has different ethical bars and there should be I think much stricter laws...I don't support these laws that let legalized gambling to extent it's become legal And somehow its slipped under the ethical radar.

00:17:09: Somehow thats okay.

00:17:10: but social media often i know exactly why Because traditional media Is in competition with Social Media so they write about every day in a negative fashion because they're direct competitors.

00:17:25: Let's say in halftime, so it's a lot.

00:17:51: So yeah And I don't understand that these are the things we should protect people from more than just spending time.

00:17:56: Yeah But where was The Social Dola movie about sports betting?

00:17:59: Somehow...I don't know how that happened.

00:18:01: Do you understand why there wasn't like-?

00:18:03: I feel Like There Was Never A Public Debate About That.

00:18:05: It and its really makes me sad

00:18:07: but Its the same with alot of things right.

00:18:09: We dont have a huge alcohol debate In lets say large media or on Netflix, for example.

00:18:17: as much is also smoking.

00:18:20: I think they are doing a lot of lobbying in all industries that seem to harm people or not seem too...that harm people That um They try to not get like talked about too much Of course here and there's an article Here There Is A Book Here And There Is This YouTube Video That Blows Up.

00:18:39: But It Seems Like These Things Often Get Forgotten Because People Are Like Oh Yeah but thats That's normal by now, and it shouldn't.

00:18:47: You said that exactly right.

00:18:48: like when something is old It's normal.

00:18:50: we feel like oh its always been here but you're absolutely right smoking my god how How do people still smoke today?

00:18:56: Like I don't understand it Its amazing to me But they do And you can educate the hell out of people.

00:19:03: Uh...and at some point uh..it becomes very uh....it become ummm I don't know.

00:19:11: How much more we can do for people to help them understand how horrible smoking is and yeah when you try And take it away oh, its personal freedom Oh i want too.

00:19:18: that's the kind of stuff i think We need More regulation because there It such a clear connection between You Know Public health concerns whereas you know how People spend their time online?

00:19:30: It gets ninety percent Of The media attention.

00:19:33: but When We Think About Addiction We Think about Media Addiction Screen Addiction But Yet Real Addiction That takes your health away, we don't really talk about it anymore because its not sexy any more.

00:19:44: It's old!

00:19:45: Absolutely and I recently watched a video on alcohol that after that... We are moving back to start-up topics i think but the introduction was amazing.

00:19:53: The introduction was imagine you get born today with everything that somebody comes to say hey here is a contract You have to sign in Your spending over lifetime More than one hundred thousand euros, dollars no matter where you are and You will get pretty much nothing out of it.

00:20:14: Maybe a lot of headache A lot of unconsciousness maybe very bad sleep May be in the moment a little bit of fun time but he will regret often afterwards if your overusing it.

00:20:29: And yeah Pretty much they're paying me money here not getting anything back besides health problems or like at least for the moment sacrificing a little bit of your health and Nobody would sign this contract, but he said it's so normal with alcohol today that we automatically Signed his contract when we are born because it's just in our society.

00:20:57: And I was thinking about him.

00:20:58: It was like That's amazingly framed.

00:21:02: i'm A thousand percent like way more hooked about this idea on how to approach and think about alcohol than like, yeah alcohol is super bad just don't do it.

00:21:12: Just the framing of how it spans out throughout a lifetime.

00:21:17: I was

00:21:18: crazy.

00:21:18: well done introduction.

00:21:20: Yeah that's great point.

00:21:23: It's one.

00:21:23: those things we fall into because looks so normal cause its been here for long.

00:21:29: We dont take step back and be like wait a minute.

00:21:31: Is this actually what I want to do?

00:21:33: And by the way, that actually segues very well with the topic of indestructible because Indestructible is not just about tech habits.

00:21:39: It's about all kinds of bad habits.

00:21:41: it's about anything we do and look back later... ...and we regret!

00:21:45: We're spending money with regret..it's about spending time with regret.

00:21:49: its like-its' about spending our health with regret.

00:21:52: if you don't exercise when say will or smoke or drink whatever it is then we look back at them saying wait a minute.

00:21:58: why did i do

00:21:59: that?!

00:22:01: And so that's what I'm trying to prevent in my own life.

00:22:03: The book was really...I wrote the book for me more than anyone else, What i am trying to prevented by life is looking back with regret and those regrets come from distractions when I know it want.

00:22:13: do you live a certain way then somehow did something else?

00:22:16: So thats why its fascinating this question of WHY IS IT THAT DESPITE KNOWING WHAT TO DO?

00:22:22: WE ALL KNOW WHAT TO Do.

00:22:22: we all know smoking bad drinking too much time on social media as bad.

00:22:29: Yet, why don't we do the things?

00:22:30: We say you're gonna.

00:22:31: Do.

00:22:32: the answer is not because somebody's making us do it The answers because we don't know how to control ourselves.

00:22:36: yet

00:22:37: That's true.

00:22:38: before we jump into like How-to actually get indestructible because I think that's important for a lot of founders out there Is the question about like self optimization Because i think A lot Of critics About People trying To optimize everything in Their life and Think Rethinking Everything as Like Oh, yeah.

00:22:55: You're just self-optimizing too much and I can imagine that a lot of people wrote this to you as feedback or told you at some point That there is A. There are few people who were like Yeah, that's a bit too much Like how about like?

00:23:11: How much his ownership And how much is maybe?

00:23:14: Can it get unhealthy to self optimize too much?

00:23:16: Are we thinking about productivity too much like how do We integrate this all in the life where we're like Indian happy not like Optimizing for the wrong reasons.

00:23:26: Yeah, look if your life is great If you're happy and you don't want any changes in your life Don't read my book.

00:23:34: it's not free.

00:23:35: It's a book for people who like me Knew that I knew that i was capable of more.

00:23:41: Okay?

00:23:41: I knew That I could do better In life.

00:23:43: that I know I was.

00:23:46: when I Was with My daughter.

00:23:47: I was often distracted.

00:23:48: I was checking my phone as opposed to being fully present With her.

00:23:51: I knew that, you know...I would say i was going to exercise but I didn't.

00:23:54: I said it's gonna eat right But nahh!

00:23:56: I wouldn't uh.. I knew like needed work on the big project and now- I'd keep procrastinating on this thing.

00:24:10: And if thats where your find yourself then this is the answer.

00:24:13: Its not for a person who says hey my life perfect.

00:24:15: If your lives perfect live your life.

00:24:17: I don't wanna change you What I want.

00:24:19: do help people.

00:24:21: Say one thing and yet do something else, right?

00:24:24: And I hate to admit that but that was me.

00:24:26: Right we know the worst things you can call someone is a liar.

00:24:30: To be called a liar it's terrible.

00:24:32: We would hate being called a lier by somebody else If were honest with ourselves.

00:24:36: we lie all of our time.

00:24:39: We say what are going on.

00:24:40: then we will do something other.

00:24:42: The problem these days not only don't want us to know What to Do.

00:24:45: if you wanna lose weight You have to eat right in exercise.

00:24:48: We know,

00:24:49: right?

00:24:50: If you want to be better at your job.

00:24:51: You have do the hard work that other people don't wanna.

00:24:54: Do we Know?

00:24:54: if you want To Have Better Relationships!

00:24:57: You have to Be Fully Presented With The People That You Love.

00:24:59: WE KNOW But Why Don't We Do It?

00:25:02: How Do We Keep Going Off Track?

00:25:04: And So IF YOU'RE THE KIND OF PERSON WHO WANTS TO LIVE OUT THEIR POTENTIAL WHO WANTS TO LOOK BACK AT THEIR LIFE AND NOT REGRET NOT TAKING ACTION WHEN YOU HAVE THE CHANCE THEN THAT'S MY Audience.

00:25:15: THAT'S A KIND of PERSON I'M WRITING FOR

00:25:17: And I definitely found myself in that audience when i listen to the book.

00:25:23: So therefore, I just wanted take away the critics first and state who this is for why we're talking about it?

00:25:45: So what is the most important thing that I have to realize when i'm currently feeling completely ran by somebody else and not like, I can commit to things.

00:25:59: Yeah so we should start with What Is Distraction Really?

00:26:03: So distraction's one of these words... So the best way to understand what distraction is, Is not.

00:26:15: What's the opposite of distraction?

00:26:16: Most people will tell you that the opposite distraction... ...is focus.

00:26:20: But it isn't exactly right That if we look at the etymology in this word The opposite of distractions are NOT focused.

00:26:25: The opposite distraction is traction.

00:26:28: We have traction and distraction.

00:26:31: Traction is any action.. ..that pulls us towards what You said You were going To do Things that move you closer to your values And help you be kinder become the kind of person you want to become.

00:26:41: The opposite of traction, distraction, distraction is any action that pulls you away from what you said you were going do a way for your values away from becoming the kinda person you wanted to be.

00:26:50: come so y-you see it both traction and distraction end in same six letter word ACTIY on this Bell's Action reminding us That distraction Is not something happens too wasp but rather It isn't an action we ourselves take.

00:27:05: So its important distinguish between these two things Traction and Distraction because I would argue the difference is one word, and that one word is intent.

00:27:14: That the time you plan to waste is not wasted-time as Dorothy Parker said.

00:27:18: so if you plan in advance To watch television...to drink a beer...to hang out with your friends..To play video games whatever it isn't You want to do with Your life Is fine As long It's done With Intent!

00:27:33: As Long as its what YOU said you were going to Do In Advance.

00:27:36: Those are acts of traction.

00:27:38: The opposite, distraction is anything that pulls you away from it.

00:27:41: It's not what you plan to do.

00:27:42: So its'nt about moralizing and medicalizing And saying oh playing video games or social media thats bad No!

00:27:47: Its only bad if its NOT WHAT YOU SAID YOU WERE GONNA DO IN ADVANCE.

00:27:50: Whereas DISTRACTION This actually...if you think of it the things that cause people to get distracted ITS NOT THE USUAL SUSPECTS IT'S NOT THE FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM THAT TENDS TO NOT ACTUALLY BE THE REAL CULPRITS OF DISTRACTION.

00:28:05: THE WORST KIND OF DESTRACTIANS are the distractions that we don't even realize is tricking us.

00:28:11: So for example, this was what I used to do every day... ...I use go-to work and sit at my desk and say okay!

00:28:15: I'm gonna work on a big project that i've been delaying.. ..i am not going procrastinate.

00:28:19: here's where it goes.

00:28:20: nothing will get in my way.

00:28:23: but first let me check some e-mail right?

00:28:26: Let me just scroll that slack channel real quick.

00:28:28: Just to get started.

00:28:32: And what I didn't realize was that one thing, even if it's a work-related task... ...was taking me away from what i said im going to do.

00:28:40: So by definition its a distraction.

00:28:41: so just because.. It is a WORK RELATED TASK doesn't mean its not a DISTRACTION.

00:28:46: If you say your were gonna do with time and attention, IT IS BY DEFINITION A DISTRACTION Even IF IT'S WORK related!

00:28:53: Right?

00:28:54: Because of checking email or whatever.

00:28:56: That is the worst kind of distraction because you don't even REALIZE that you've gone off track.

00:29:00: That is not what you said your going to do with time and attention.

00:29:03: So, thats really important.

00:29:03: We have to understand traction And distraction.

00:29:06: Now we are talking about the triggers The things that prompt us towards Traction and Distraction.

00:29:11: These come in two types.

00:29:12: We have what would be called external triggers.

00:29:15: External triggers are all of these around us.

00:29:17: The pings, the dings ,the rings All thins on our outside environment That can lead us toward traction and distraction.

00:29:23: Then we have internal triggers.

00:29:25: Internal triggers account for ninety percent, ninety percent of our sources of distraction.

00:29:32: So only ten percent of distractions come from things outside us.

00:29:36: Ninety percent comes within us!

00:29:39: What are internal triggers?

00:29:40: Internal triggers are uncomfortable emotional states.

00:29:44: Boredom, loneliness fatigue uncertainty stress anxiety.

00:29:48: This is ninety percent the source of our distraction.

00:29:51: so to answer your question what's first step in becoming indestructible?

00:29:55: It's mastering these internal triggers or they will become your master.

00:29:59: Because whether it is too much news, too much booze to much football and Facebook you are always going to get distracted by something another unless you realize why you're getting distracted in the first place.

00:30:10: And ninety percent of time reason for that distraction Is an uncomfortable feeling.

00:30:16: This where we talk about personal responsibility because until you understand emotional state You won't be able do anything.

00:30:24: And so, what you need to have is these tools in your toolkit ready-to go.

00:30:27: So that when you feel bored do automatically check your device.

00:30:31: if don't know how it works and feeling uncertain Do you check email or pause for a second?

00:30:35: You actually KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU PLAN TO DO IN ADVANCE!

00:30:39: Step number one becoming indistractable is master the internal triggers.

00:30:43: There's over a dozen different techniques.

00:30:45: I give you on this book... ...so that you can have those tools ready to use as opposed of using you.

00:30:53: Myself until today like boredom.

00:30:57: Okay, let me check Instagram Let me check what's up?

00:31:00: Let me take but just let me pick up my phone and do something else instead of thinking about okay What will happen if I have some boredom on some free time to spend some thoughts?

00:31:10: And it's crazy and I am definitely also in preparation for this interview realized ok Until a master dis i have to re listen to the book let's say once a month or every six weeks, because otherwise I will forget about it.

00:31:25: It was very good in the two-weeks after listening to the book and then became a bit slippery and didn't do as much but focused differently.

00:31:36: not focused however and distracted by this that at some point is wasn't habit yet.

00:31:43: so i decided take the books that I really wanna implement and re-listen to it, rather than always trying to consume new stuff.

00:31:52: And because otherwise how should i master things after just reading at once listening to it?

00:32:00: Once.

00:32:00: so for everybody out there you're not alone.

00:32:04: we all have the same struggles here.

00:32:06: um Just Take The Time Give Yourself A Time And Repeat Things.

00:32:09: Just Don't Try To Know Everything After One.

00:32:12: Try

00:32:13: Yeah, yeah.

00:32:14: And I'll tell you a secret...I have to repeat these things for myself!

00:32:17: Right?

00:32:17: Because our natural tendency the brain is always looking for the path of least resistance.

00:32:22: Your brain it's called- It's a cognitive miser.

00:32:24: You're always trying to do the least work To relieve that discomfort.

00:32:28: So its very easy to slip back into this.

00:32:31: uh Very quick solutions That don't ultimately benefit you.

00:32:35: so even i get distracted from time and time.

00:32:38: Being indistractable doesn't mean you never get distracted.

00:32:40: I still get distracted From time at times.

00:32:41: The difference is that an indistractable person understands why they got distracted, so they can stop getting distracted by the same things.

00:32:50: A distractible person keeps getting distracted about the same thing.

00:32:54: it's like poilo-coilo.

00:32:55: he had a wonderful quote.

00:32:56: He said... I'll say again because its' so good.

00:33:03: So okay if you get distracted by social media Okay It happens.

00:33:07: But how many times can we get distracted by social media before we say enough?

00:33:11: Okay, I got it!

00:33:12: They're distracting.

00:33:13: So what am i gonna do?

00:33:15: A distractable person keeps getting distracted and they are making a choice to be distractible because their not doing anything about it.

00:33:22: An indistractable person says ah okay you've gotten me...I was distracted You got me.

00:33:26: How could I take steps today To prevent getting distracted tomorrow?

00:33:30: And so that's where exactly- I still did this till the very day I'll take out my own book and look through it, okay this is a distraction that didn't get me before but got to be this time.

00:33:38: What can i do?

00:33:39: How could use these four simple steps To make sure that doesn't happen again?

00:33:43: We talked about internal triggers.

00:33:45: That definitely means there are externals as well And they think alot of them come to mind.

00:33:50: But what would you say are the most often happening and most likely happening?

00:33:58: external triggers?

00:33:59: we need to understand control them or disable them that we don't get distracted all the time.

00:34:07: Yeah, so it depends on context.

00:34:09: It depends on where you spend your time and your life.

00:34:12: essentially You know are your person who works from home?

00:34:14: Or a person who worked in an office?

00:34:16: I'll tell you then in an Office setting The number one distraction is not the pings-and-dings.

00:34:20: That's not to your computer site Your phone its other people that surveys find that as the number One source of distractions.

00:34:26: somebody stops by your desk And say hey can i talk to for a quick minute?

00:34:29: Where does that TPS report?

00:34:30: did you hear this office gossip?

00:34:31: That's the number one source of distraction in The Workplace.

00:34:34: And so, if you look at inside every copy of a book there is actually a screen sign.

00:34:40: There was piece of card stock and every single copy that you tear out.

00:34:43: You see it different from all other pages.

00:34:46: I had to fight with my publisher To do this...you tear It Out Of A Book and put it on your computer monitor.

00:34:52: So it tells your fellow colleagues Look!

00:34:55: It says I'm indistractable.

00:34:57: Please come back later.

00:34:59: And so it sends this very clear message to your colleagues that for this moment I need to concentrate.

00:35:04: Please come back a little bit later, Very effective if you're working in an office environment.

00:35:08: But what about all...I think a much greater or equally important source of distraction Especially these days are all the meetings right?

00:35:17: especially now we can have Zoom meeting.

00:35:19: It used be kind difficult but there was friction calling a meeting.

00:35:22: Well today doesn't matter where you were.

00:35:24: People could just put meetings on calendar.

00:35:26: And so today I think, you know we don't think about the easy stuff.

00:35:29: The pings and digs...I spend one page in a book talking how to hack back your cell phone or computer.

00:35:36: that's kindergarten stuff!

00:35:37: Anybody can if they want to change notifications settings Google.

00:35:39: it takes five minutes okay?

00:35:40: That is Kindergarten.

00:35:42: What are all these stupid meetings we attend every day that did need to be

00:35:45: called?!

00:35:46: THAT IS A MASSIVE SOURCE OF

00:35:47: DISTRACTION!!

00:35:48: And part of reason why people do not understand WHAT MEETINGS ARE

00:35:51: FOR!!!

00:35:51: People have forgotten THE PURPOSE OF MEETING.

00:35:54: Oh, let's just get together and talk about this.

00:35:56: No!

00:35:57: No no no the purpose of meetings are not to talk about stuff.

00:36:01: The purpose of a business meeting or a synchronous business meeting is To gain consensus.

00:36:06: there are social meetings right.

00:36:07: taking someone else out-to-lunch Social Meeting There our brainstorming sessions Right?

00:36:11: That's a different type of thing.

00:36:12: And by the way you know the optimal number Of people for brain storming session.

00:36:16: what's the optimal?

00:36:17: Number

00:36:18: two I'd say too big

00:36:21: Or less.

00:36:23: What is opposed to what happens today?

00:36:24: if you say, well let's get on Zoom and we'll have a meeting.

00:36:27: We will talk about this... What tends to happen Is that when trying these brainstorming sessions with more than two people at the time The loudest?

00:36:36: The most male!

00:36:37: The highest paid And most dominant person Runs the conversation.

00:36:42: So we don't give everybody opinions.

00:36:43: so what the heck is point?

00:36:44: A much better strategy is to tell people, hey here's the problem.

00:36:49: Here's the homework that I did hear some education for you on the homework research That i did.

00:36:53: we're gonna have a meeting in order To gain consensus For what?

00:36:56: I think We should do next right so i would say The biggest one of the biggest source Of distraction through these external triggers are These superfluous meetings that Are called today.

00:37:04: but there's others of course too.

00:37:05: if You work from home it could be your kids.

00:37:07: It can Be A huge Source of Distraction.

00:37:09: uh...I talk about In the book What to Do About That?

00:37:11: Uh..Of Course it Can Be.

00:37:14: uh..uh..uh.

00:37:14: Your phone your computer group chat Group chat is another hellhole of distraction because people again don't know how to use it properly.

00:37:21: They leave on all day long, which is terrible.

00:37:25: But these are very solvable things that we can hack back.

00:37:28: Yeah absolutely.

00:37:29: and I think one other thing That i would love To add here for me as a person the biggest issue was that?

00:37:36: Was

00:37:37: like

00:37:37: giving others too much control about my calendar And just like agree to a lot Of Things and then from The day or the minute I woke up to like, i could only finish my stuff at the end of workday if still had enough energy.

00:37:52: I did not prioritize myself enough but was reactive instead.

00:37:56: proactive and just.

00:37:58: it can be traveling, meetings whatever... And I'm losing so much energy by doing what others want.

00:38:12: send this email out today or tomorrow, but I don't have time to finish it before the deadline if i dont spend night and evening with that.

00:38:20: And taking at least control is easy for me because in mid-twenties there are no responsibilities to other people family etc.. But you can do meetings before ten or eleven depends on your days Like just having the flexibility to plan my morning instead of just like starting with reactivity changed a lot.

00:38:47: Absolutely, yeah you're hitting on this critical step Of making time for traction which is actually Step two To become indistractable.

00:38:56: if You don't plan your times something's gonna plant it For you.

00:38:59: so This Is where we have to decide in advance how We spend our Time and The way most people Spend their Time as Doing what's Called Reactive Work.

00:39:05: Reactive work is when we react to messages, reacting emails, reacting to meetings, reacting what other people want of us as opposed to spending at least some part your day doing reflective work.

00:39:17: Okay?

00:39:17: Atleast SOME PART OF YOUR DAY NEEDS TO BE PLANNED ON YOUR CALENDAR... ...TO THINK, TO STRATEGIZE, TO BE CREATIVE.

00:39:24: THAT KIND OF WORK CAN NOT BE DONE WITH DISTRACTION!

00:39:27: You just can't do that kind of creative work unless you are left alone to DO it.

00:39:32: and so you have put time on the calendar.

00:39:34: Because if you don't what happens with most people?

00:39:37: they get habituated to reactive work.

00:39:39: They start enjoying in a way being told What-to do right?

00:39:43: I don't want have to really think about my priorities, I don' t wanna Have To Think About the hard Work so i'll just check My email inbox will tell me what to Do.

00:39:51: Right well that's ridiculous because what You're doing is your running real fast In The Wrong Direction Or people come up with cockamamie excuses like, oh you know my clients might need me.

00:40:00: My boss is gonna need me.

00:40:02: You're in a customer service business.

00:40:04: somebody's going to need me.

00:40:04: I have be on call all the time.

00:40:06: Bullshit almost never true right?

00:40:08: there are some if your own it cut in a call center different story.

00:40:12: Your job is just sit by phone and wait for calls Different Story.

00:40:15: But that vast majority of white collar workers Your boss can wait thirty minutes so they finish their focus work-time Before you get back to that message.

00:40:25: There's almost never an actual oh my god emergency That somebody can't wait a few minutes until you finish that time block To do proper

00:40:31: work.

00:40:32: Absolutely, and one other thing I would love to hear your opinion on Is to-do list?

00:40:39: You just have me.

00:40:41: what are you thinking?

00:40:41: we tell you What i think but what do you think about to do this?

00:40:46: yeah so to do less suck But should qualify.

00:40:51: It's not that to-do lists on their own suck.

00:40:53: If most people don't use them appropriately, okay?

00:40:55: What most people do is they think of something They put it onto a list and then hopefully do it And they almost never do.

00:41:01: That's how much we really used to do this.

00:41:02: So the first step Is right.

00:41:04: Right We should take things out Of our brain and Put them On A piece of paper in an app.

00:41:08: Very good But that's Step one.

00:41:10: Okay The problem is if you just leave at that You write all Things you have To Do Then you Think your gonna do Them.

00:41:18: You probably won't finish them.

00:41:19: Almost Never will because there's no constraint.

00:41:23: You can always add more to a to-do list, and so what happens at the end of day?

00:41:27: you work real hard then you get home from working.

00:41:30: look your to do this new stuff.

00:41:31: one hundred things he didn't finish.

00:41:33: it was that duty or psyche with.

00:41:34: is that due to yourself?

00:41:36: when use any promise yourself are gonna do all the stuff in you did not done loser and say begin thinking old day after they week after we got don't be the thing I'm going to do.

00:41:45: and that's where people saying stupid things like oh i know good time management or I'm easily distracted, Or you know...I am a sectarist.

00:41:52: That's why i can't focus.

00:41:53: You hear them saying all this ridiculous stuff.

00:41:55: It is not that they are broken.

00:41:56: Is it the stupid technique?

00:41:58: Doesn't work?

00:41:59: Because writing things down is just first step The second step to put on your calendar.

00:42:07: If its NOT in your schedule Its not gonna happen.

00:42:11: Whereas a schedule has constraints When say there only twenty four hours per day Can make more hours.

00:42:18: it forces you to make certain trade-offs and realistically assess what you can work on for a certain time of your day.

00:42:25: So the right metric, people who use this to do lists measure themselves by how many cute little boxes they check off.

00:42:30: I've known that people will write things down after doing them just so they get joy in checking their box.

00:42:36: How stupid is that?

00:42:39: The reason why these boxes are so silly?

00:42:41: because its measuring the wrong thing.

00:42:43: It doesn't matter if there's any cute little box as you check off.

00:42:45: You know why?

00:42:45: Because that incentivizes Doing the things that are easy and fun, but The hard-and important work doesn't get done right.

00:42:53: you do their urgent.

00:42:54: You did the fine.

00:42:54: Do they easy?

00:42:55: That's good.

00:42:56: I can check it off But he don't do this stuff.

00:42:57: that really really matters.

00:42:59: as opposed to people who use a time box calendar Which is what I advocate for an indistractable You measure yourself by a different metric.

00:43:06: the right metric To Measure Yourself Is not.

00:43:10: Did i finish the task?

00:43:13: Not.

00:43:13: Did I Finish It's not.

00:43:14: Did I Get to Check Off the Box?

00:43:15: Wrong Metric?

00:43:17: The right metric of success is, did I do what I said that was going to for as long as I would without distraction?

00:43:25: That's it.

00:43:26: Did i do when I said I was gonna be doing this for the longest time with no distractions?

00:43:31: That thing can spend more time on your kids!

00:43:33: It could work on a big project or make sales calls and check emails but only in times like these.

00:43:41: why are they so important?

00:43:43: because the biggest problem with to-do lists is that you have no idea how long things take you finish.

00:43:49: If you put a finished presentation, here's what happens... You start on your to do list and say okay I'm gonna work in my presentation.. You started working out for five minutes.

00:43:57: it gets little difficult.

00:43:58: let me just check email for few minutes.

00:43:59: ok i did that.

00:44:00: now we're going into presentation of two more minute.

00:44:02: oh but now if phone call now as you don't know how long thing state you were to do.

00:44:08: as opposed too When you have a time box schedule, You work on the presentation for thirty minutes without distraction and do nothing but.

00:44:15: And then you can say to yourself uh-huh okay I need make a thirty slide presentation.

00:44:19: i got there about three slides so that's about ten percent.

00:44:22: So I needed three hundred minutes To finish up the whole presentation Right?

00:44:27: Now!

00:44:28: You could start evaluating here is how long something will take me to finishing it in your calendar.

00:44:33: Which is why People who don't measure themselves by whether they finish a task and only use this time box method actually Finish more.

00:44:43: They get more done.

00:44:44: the people to use it just that to do list because there able to assess how long things are Realistically going to take them.

00:44:49: so it's not that to-do lists or wrong.

00:44:51: It's, just if their incomplete The way most people used them.

00:44:54: A few years ago I started talking about to do less as to do graveyards for me personally Because everything did i did Not put in my calendar or just set reminders

00:45:05: for.

00:45:06: In a certain way, it was like I will never do

00:45:09: that.".

00:45:09: I could find hundreds of to-dos and thought i should at some point... ...and never did!

00:45:14: And I have to steal one of your recommendations because after reading the book.. ..or listening to indestructible I also looked into resources and one tool that I discovered changed how work by far.

00:45:28: so thank you.

00:45:29: this point already is motion and I know you use it as well because what motion does, combines your calendar project management into do list.

00:45:37: You can then put in a task like hey i need to finish this presentation its highest priority by tomorrow and motion automatically shows when might make sense on this.

00:45:52: if have an upcoming other event let's say we are jumping on the call work on the things you said, you need to work on instead of just picking out what is next thing that has priority.

00:46:08: If then have stuff with lower priority it gets pushed back a bit and It helps so much with organizing tasks and reacting to like calendar that can get new meetings or anything different priorities and it just automatically helps you manage this.

00:46:32: This completely changed how I approach my day, so I am really thankful for the recommendation.

00:46:37: that's why i will also put in a show notes because like... It blew my mind.

00:46:42: that is working so easily then!

00:46:46: So happy to hear that.

00:46:47: thats fantastic ,you made me day!

00:46:49: Yeah im absolutely thankful.

00:46:53: The last question about productivity and being indestructible, managing time just because we are running out of time at some point.

00:47:03: But I have one more question that all this is what we talked about.

00:47:07: how does it affect your approach as an angel investor?

00:47:11: As i said in the beginning introduction you're investing.

00:47:17: How do you approach Angel Investing?

00:47:19: So, I invest in companies that use the hook methodology exclusively.

00:47:23: Uh...I don't invest in countries where they feel like i could offer some value as an investor right?

00:47:28: There's lots of places you can go get money.

00:47:29: uh..i want to be a kind angel investor who makes product better by giving unique insights into what i know about how to build habit for me products.

00:47:38: so i look at the kinds of products that A-build customer habits and B-build healthy habits which really change people lives by building habits for good.

00:47:50: So you mentioned some of the companies I invested in, like Eventbrite and Kahoot

00:47:56: are some of them

00:47:57: more successful companies but also investing companies that are up-and-coming.

00:48:00: they're quite successful.

00:48:02: that really do have great social causes as well.

00:48:05: For example i'm an investor a company called Sunnyside.

00:48:08: They used to be called Cutback Coach which actually deals with something we talked about earlier.

00:48:11: they help people cut back on drinking alcohol.

00:48:14: Not to go abstinent, not to never drink but it's an app that helps people consume less called Sunnyside and so thats a great demonstration of how we can use habit forming technology through an app or the hook model to help people live better lives.

00:48:31: So that's the kind of products I look for, you know?

00:48:32: For all the usual stuff like products are in a big market and great team

00:48:36: etc.,

00:48:37: but they also have use hook model as part my criteria.

00:48:42: not because we can't build successful business without it.

00:48:46: I don't really understand crypto or pharmaceutical products.

00:48:53: Biotech, cyber...I don't think that can add much value there.

00:48:57: so i don't invest in those categories but i invest in companies to build healthy

00:49:01: habits.".

00:49:01: The super last question promised who out of the investments you made would be good additions for this show?

00:49:08: Who should they talk with where like?

00:49:10: hey it will be amazing to dive a bit deeper on how these people think, and because it would do good for a lot of thousands of founders out there.

00:49:20: For start-up founder to interview?

00:49:24: Yes!

00:49:24: Yeah.

00:49:25: so I think the Sunnyside guys are really interesting.

00:49:28: they're killing it.

00:49:30: There's another company called Dynamic Care which is one my portfolio companies.

00:49:35: Dynamic care is a company that helps people who are addicted to substances whether it's meth or heroin, various drugs.

00:49:47: They help people fight their addictions through an incentive program that uses variable rewards.

00:49:56: So the incentive to not using drugs is you get enter into a sort of lottery To win something.

00:50:04: Sometimes you don't win anything but sometimes you win one hundred dollar gift card and iPhone and it's amazing.

00:50:10: It sounds so simple, you're like how could that possibly work to help people stop using heroin?

00:50:15: And it does!

00:50:16: It's AMAZING how effective this technique can be...and now its being legislated.

00:50:23: actually governments around the country are investing in similar programs.

00:50:27: uh..to-to help people fight addiction has become a very successful treatment program along with other things not just this.

00:50:33: right is whole treatment program.

00:50:35: So those two founders I think we would enjoy speaking dynamic care and Sunnyside.

00:50:40: I will definitely have a look.

00:50:41: Nier, it's been an absolute

00:50:42: pleasure... By the way i've got a whole list of companies.

00:50:45: if you want others!

00:50:47: I'll ask and then ping you afterwards.

00:50:49: Thank-you so much.

00:50:50: It has been an absolutely pleasure having on your show.

00:50:53: This is being outstanding podcast.

00:50:54: Of course I linked to your blog.

00:50:56: I linked here To books.

00:50:58: I link too The tools that we talked about And um.. Its' been an absurd pressure.

00:51:03: I think its very important to talk about these topics more often learning and adapting them as a personal, like just for personal well-being.

00:51:12: So therefore thank you so much for joining

00:51:16: my pleasure.

00:51:16: Thank You.